Martin Hartley
Fellow Sonata Sailors
It seems there is an upwelling in the Class to allow Sponsorship and hence advertising within the Class.
This has always been outlawed by the Class rules, but it seems is now being questioned.
I wish to start a debate on the matter. Please join the thread and voice your opinions. I view this as being a very important discussion, with a decision that reflects the Class opinion as a whole.
I’ll start the ball rolling
My point of view is that sponsorship of Sonatas would little affect he class. Sonatas don’t attract a ‘deep pocket’ type of sailor and the amount we are talking probably amounts to a set of sails or travelling expenses (which incidentally we talked about the Sonata Assn assisting some boats with – surely that’s a kind of sponsorship).
Looking at things from a different point of view, the class often asks for sponsorship to run its events. It seems almost hypocritical to ask for it on the one hand, then forbid it on the other.
I can understand the ethos of the class as it was 20-30 years ago when Sonatas were the boat of the moment, but that moment is long gone. The Sonatas of today are run less by high end crews and more by lower budget teams who enjoy the boat for what it is. I fail to see the harm in allowing sponsorship and just how much faster would it make the boat – not much I suspect. The advantages may be that a few more boats remain competitive, and are encouraged to sail at events. How many boats don’t bother racing because of tired sails or perhaps prohibitive travelling expenses?
I invite your points of view
Please participate, Best regards,
Martin Hartley
Andrew Martland
I was the one who raised the question on the forum.
I agree with advertising and do not believe that it will change the class in anyway.
Apart from some brighter pictures and hopefully more boats at the Nationals
I do think the changers should be made ASAP so teams like us can plan for the Nationals and Northern’s
I hope we do not have to wait until the May/June! Then its to late for any forward plans etc.
Thanks
Andy Martland
Euan Aitken
Hi Guys
I have no problem with sponsorship of any kind however large or small.
I dont see that it would have much effect ,even if a corporate type boat (unlikley in our wee class) came along, as most of the boats I have had the pleasure of racing against have competitive sails and last time i checked fancy stickers and logos dont make boats go faster 
So my vote is that i am in favour, I actualy suspect it would help increase turn outs and numbers if anything and that can only be a good thing for the class.
Cheers
Euan
Mark Taylor
Hi Guys
I have no problem with sponsorship of any kind however large or small.
I dont see that it would have much effect ,even if a corporate type boat (unlikley in our wee class) came along, as most of the boats I have had the pleasure of racing against have competitive sails and last time i checked fancy stickers and logos dont make boats go faster
So my vote is that i am in favour, I actualy suspect it would help increase turn outs and numbers if anything and that can only be a good thing for the class.
Cheers
Euan
Mark Taylor
I am also in favour of allowing sponsorship……….not because I believe I could persuade anyone to sponsor me but because there is a chance it might encourage others to get a Sonata and race it competitievely, so I’ll get the benefit of better racing and the class will (again) flourish.
Earlier in the thread Peter Booth suggested we might wish to limit number of new sails and I would be against that idea………lets keep the rules simple and concentrate on getting new people into the class and existing owners to get out racing. If someone can afford a complte new set each year then so what, we all know the sails on a Sonata last reasonably well and its boat handling and helm that usually matters….
regards
Mark
Saraband 8314N
peterbooth
Hi Mark,
Your absolutely right, our nationals committee members are tearing their hair out trying to work with some of our rules and getting stuch down blind alleys, yet we are determined to get it right. I would like everyone to ignore what I said about frequency of new sails.
Peter
Robert Davis
I can see nothing but benefits to allowing boats to display advertising as a result of sponsorship.
Some people will travel to events that they would not otherwise be able to attend.
If people use the money to buy sails more frequently than they would otherwise this will help to increase the stock of worthwhile sails in the class. In a previous class I always bought sails each year and then sold my old ones to sailors who could not afford new ones.
The nature of our closed rules prevent class members from turning their boats into imitation America’s cup machines full of monstrously expensive equipment.
Any additional publicity from sponsors advertising their involvement in the class would be more than welcome.
Let’s go for it.
Bob Davis
Chris Bentley
Hi Guys,
I have rested awhile to see what opinions pop up, and, surprise surprise, all in favour so far.
You will have guessed, I suspect, why this has come up now in particular. The RYA have changed the default position from “not accept advertising unless the Class agrees” to ” will accept advertising unless the class specifically disagrees”
As your Chairman, I would say the following;
We are considering changing the rules of the Class, which have been in place for 30 years or so, and, on that basis, my view is that we need to consider carefully and, canvas as many Class members for their opinions as poss.
I understand the time pressures re-this season’s early racing, especially the Northerns. However, I would say that, right now, the rule is no advertising, so, pending a rule change, anyone who has raced, or has ordered sails, stickers, or painted their boat in the corporate design of the Dog and Duck is, or will, break the rules if they do so without a rule change. Rules are Rules! And, heaven forbid that if anyone actually has, that it should influence the body of opinion expressed here.
I have chatted to several members about the topic. We have discussed it in Committee. There is a spread of opinion.
Let me explain a little bit more about our (Committee) decision to “Sponsor” individual members to travel to National events if they are at the opposite end of the country:
In view of the falling numbers at these events, and the fact that we, the Association, have built up a fund of your subs over the years, we considered how we could best spend some of this to the benefit of the Class. This was the answer. We haven’t set up any rules yet, your comments are invited. This, and sponsorship of our events, of which there has been much, are entirely separate forms of sponsorship to boat sponsorship and the two should not be mixed up, mainly for the reason that the Class Rules, and indeed the RYA, say nothing about it, and neither should they. (I think it is a tenuous argument to say that if we, for example, subsidised the travel costs of all visitors to Whitby from over 200 miles away, that counts as boat sponsorship. I hope you agree) – (sorry, Martin)! And, anyway, we would all be delighted if you put stickers on the backs of your 4 x 4s with “Powered by The Sonata Class” on them.
My suggestion is that, as we shall shortly be sending out subs reminders to the whole Class, I include a little note about this topic and invite members to post on the forum. We will set a sensible time limit and decide from there. Is that reasonable? I need to make Members more pro-active about using the website anyway.
Cheers,
Chris
peterbooth
Hi all again,
The Scottish series is in late May, the Nationals in early June both before the Northerns. The Nationals committee is desperately wanting to get this right and to put on the best event we can with as many boats that can possibly make it. We have already issued the Notice of Race on the Helensburgh web site although as yet it hasn’t been put on this site, it does not carry any reference to advertising therefore it is our view that under ISAF reg 20 advertising is permited unless the class rules disallow it.
We believe that at least 2 boats will not take part if advertising is not allowed. The ISAF regulation has been written this way to make events easier to organise and attend but this is causing us much unnecessary stress. We wish to make the entry form available but are unable to do so because of issues like this. There have been 71 views on this site, at this point and nobody has said they are opposed and we only have a membership of 105. Please give us a little help here as we have a lot of other issues to address rather than writing emails and going to extra meetings over relatively irrelevant issues.
Best wishes
Peter
Tim Flatman
I’m definitely in the “let’s allow it camp” for all the reasons already discussed, particularly if it’ll mean more boats on the start line.
Tim
Fiddlesticks
GBR8397N
Neil McLure
Hi,
Sorry – just noticed what you have been talking about. Naturally I’m keen to comment 
The 2008 AGM at Strangford Lough clearly voted to allow advertising and become CAT C. (Minutes are on this website) So the RYA rules shold be immediately brought in line with the decision of the AGM.
The Nationals should be CAT C as they have been for 3 years now.
Cheers,
Neil
Richard Higgins
I am in favour of allowing advertising – it is the route the vast majority of classes have gone/are going – anything to generate more participation can only be a good thing.
For those planning to go to Brewin Dolphin Scottish Series beware – in their wisdom Clyde Cruising Club weild a 100% surchage on entry for boats displaying sponsorship (and not just on sails or hull).
Cheers
Richard Higgins
So 8217
Tim Flatman
Hi,
Sorry – just noticed what you have been talking about. Naturally I’m keen to comment
The 2008 AGM at Strangford Lough clearly voted to allow advertising and become CAT C. (Minutes are on this website) So the RYA rules shold be immediately brought in line with the decision of the AGM.
The Nationals should be CAT C as they have been for 3 years now.
Cheers,
Neil
Neil,
You’re quite correct ‘The 2008 AGM decided that the Sonata Rules Advertising Category should be CAT C.’ This being the case, surely the NSA need to apply to the RYA to change the the Class Rules.
This then clears the road for all those carrying advertising to come to the Nationals.
Tim
Fiddlesticks
Andrew Martland
Neil,
You’re quite correct ‘The 2008 AGM decided that the Sonata Rules Advertising Category should be CAT C.’ This being the case, surely the NSA need to apply to the RYA to change the the Class Rules.
This then clears the road for all those carrying advertising to come to the Nationals.
Tim
Fiddlesticks
Neil/Tim
Thanks for the clarity on this issue
Hope to see you both at the National
Andy
B.O.B 8100
David Boatman
An interesting debate developing. If we are to assume that allowing advertising on sails or hull will encourage and indeed increase partisipation in key Sonata events then it should be supported by all. To then further promote the theory it would seem logical that the “Sponsored boats” are required to have an event levy applied (not to the Scotish Series level) but say 20%, and that the cash pool is then used to offset the costs of non sponsered boats traveling over 200 miles. i.e. reduce their entry by 10%. Under this format the class would be seen to be promoting additional partisipation by supporting those trying to stretch their finances and attend more events than just those on their boats local waters. Still a major problen is the clashing of regional events (north/south) which efectively eliminates a proportion of potential travellers.
Regards to All
Dave
Chris Bentley
Hello, guys, your Chairman here;
First, the reason behind my statement in my last post that, as we speak, we, the NSA do not allow advertising on our Class boats is that we have never rescinded the decision not to allow it by telling the RYA that we had voted to change our minds in 2008. As far as the RYA are concerned, (and I did check it with them last week) we still do not allow it. So, hands up from the NSA Committee, we didn’t pass on the decision. Sorry.
We also discussed it at the 2009 AGM in Windermere and I asked the Committee for time to poll the Class as a whole because there are issues which may not be immediately obvious.
The whole situation regarding advertising is explained clearly in the RYA’s Guidance Note “ RYA Guidance on the ISAF Advertising Code” available on their website. If you want to voice an opinion on this subject, please read this first. Ditto if you have already committed yourself to buying sails/doing a paint job or otherwise displaying advertising on your boat.
There is a big difference between “Advertising” (as defined by the RYA) and sponsorship and we should be very clear about this:
The RYA are not concerned with, and it has no influence over sponsorship (in terms of owners and individual boats, not events). We all realise that sponsorship, overt or covert, exists already in the Sonata Class, and has always done so viz ‘works boats’. However, once we digress into sponsorship by firms other than sailmakers, etc., the sponsoring company normally requires some visible publicity in return, hence, back to advertising rules. But “Sponsorship” eg our intention to sponsor travelers, is something else entirely, and not part of this discussion.
Let me also highlight a couple of consequences of putting ads on your boat:
At quite a few events your race entry fees increase, sometimes by a huge amount eg Tarbert, Brewin Dolphin entry fee doubles with advertising. Round the Island (Wight) is 25% more, etc. The RYA themselves have reserved the right to levy a fee on boats with advertising.
If you stick ads on your boat, beware, unless you have a rich sponsor, you may well find yourself paying out more to race than you get back in sponsorship!
Which is a bit counter-productive for us as it may actually discourage race entry, not, as we are aiming, encourage it.
If you take this to an admittedly daft-sounding conclusion, we, as the NSA, or an organising Club, say the Royal Windermere, could add a levy to our Nationals entry fee for boats with advertising on. Exactly as the Clyde Cruising Club have done – thanks for the tip, Richard Higgins. We, as a Class, or as the NSA, would, as now, have absolutely no (or very little) say in this.
My comments are not meant to be negative, far from it, but we all need to be aware of the pitfalls. It’s not quite as straightforward as it first appears.
Of course, no one owner has to stick ads on his boat if we do allow advertising – its still an individual decision. And you could play with ripping your stickers off for events that charge extra. And, no, I don’t see the Sonata Class engaging in an ‘arms race’ fuelled by sponsor’s money a la Vendee Globe, Alanghie, etc.
I fully appreciate the dilemma of both competitors who have already commited to advertising and the organisers of the upcoming events. Its a hard one.
Just one more thing; it is in practical terms, an irreversible decision. Once we allow it, there’s no easy way to go back. In the light of the above, please post any comments.
Chris
Richard Higgins
Chris, thanks for your comprehensive note above. On a point of clarification relating to additional entry charges being made for boats displaying advertising, the RYA advise “ISAF Regulation 20.8.2 states ‘Any Competitor displaying Advertising on his boat pursuant to Regulations 20.3 may be required to pay a fee to their National Authority only’ ” This means that event organisers cannot charge additional entry fees.
David Boatman’s comments merit consideration but the Class Association must be sure that under the ISAF regulations it too is entitled to charge additional fees for boats displaying advertising. An interesting point alluded to in Chris’s message is that some boats are “supported” but do not necessarily display advertising on their hull and sails – how we deal with this type of sponsorship should be clarified in the interest of fairness and to close off loopholes if this route is pursued.
Tim Flatman
All – I thought the jury was still out? Just discovered on the RYA website the NSA 2010 Class Rules effective Feb 2010.
that reads “C.4.1 Advertising on the boat as chosen by the owner or person in charge is prohibited”
Martin Hartley
These 2010 rules were submitted to the RYA late 2009, and only passed in January. The debate should come to an end shortly after the Chairman seeks a wider opinion from the class. I submitted the other changes principally to allow the new Selden mast section to be used by the class.(They have discontinued the old section).
Clearly the question of advertising has become more urgent lately and the decision we all want is the correct decision for the Class. Please be patient and, better still post your thoughts here.
Chris Bentley
Hi all,
At least I seem to have succeeded in opening up this debate and, hopefully, have pointed out some of the not-so-obvious results of saying “yes”. Technically and Constitutionally I haven’t got a leg to stand on by asking your forebearance to conduct a wider poll of the Membership. Democratically, I think I have a point and I am going to stick with it.
I appreciate that speed is of the essence, so the deadline to answer on this forum is midnight on Sunday, 28th Feb.
Personally, I have no strong feelings either way about “advertising” in the RYA definition. As mentioned above, stickers (and even a lump of advertisers cash) won’t make you go faster. In our class, the amounts, unless I am very wrong, would be comparatively small. We don’t get enough press coverage to justify ourselves to a potential advertiser. The downside, that you end up paying more in entry fees if you arrive with stickers on would, I would guess, outweigh the benefit. And I think that doubling them is outrageous. Even the nationally televised RTI only ups the fee a smallish percentage. Doubling is just a backdoor way of preventing advertising on the water, and entries will surely suffer.
I am all in favour of sponsorship, event, travel, free food, clothing, etc and will do all in my power to encourage it. Free sails and boat bits are a slightly more awkward one, as a brand new set of sails undoubtedly improves performance. Maybe we’ll have another thread on that later.
Meanwhile, watch this space, at least until Sunday!
Chris
Mark Taylor
As someone who will never be able to attract sponsorship nor would particularly wish to have any personal sponsorship, I am however of the view that others should be allowed to access it and that it probably will increase the size of the fleet actually racing…….and it does feel good when you beat a sponsored or works boat!!!
I am therefore happy with where this thread is leading and would urge the committee to complete the steps to allow individual boats to carry sponsorship. I’m also not interested or concerned as to whether an advertised boat pays a levy over and above the standard entry fee….there are enough rules around without complicating life.
For those worried about whether the committee has a mandate then as far as I’m concerned that mandate was given at the 2008 AGM at Strangford Lough and properly recorded in the minutes of that meeting………….its only an administrative slip-up that means it isn’t actually in the latest rules.
Regards
Mark
Saraband 8314N
kennyallan
Hi,
Am reading with interest, the comments from you all. Thanks Chris for prompting mail.
I totally agree with Mark Taylor’s points and further, would suggest that there should be no extra levy on sponsored boats – just get them on the water! I’ve no intention of seeking sponsorship so have no personal motive?
As an aside, I was present at both Strangford and Windermere AGM ‘s and – forgive me if I misheard – did the organising club for an event not have the right to make the decision about sponsorship and write it into their rules for their event? Just as they do for other rules-eg safety, local byelaws. I’m sure if the obvious change in the rules is not fully legitimised through the RYA, we’re still in a position to allow the entries that we may not otherewise achieve.
Finally, as Mark has pointd out the agreement has been made at 2008 AGM to allow advertising, the poll Chris has taken stands fully behind that decision-let us progress the issue immediately after the 28th deadline.
Regards,
Kenny Allan
MisselaineyUs
Tim Flatman
RRS 87 does appear to allow this: –
87 CHANGES TO CLASS RULES
The sailing instructions may change a class rule only when the class
rules permit the change, or when written permission of the class
association for the change is displayed on the official notice board.
It would seem therefore that if it is not possible to change the Class Rules quickly the Class Association will need to provide that written permission to each organising club for display on the official notice board.?
Chris Bentley
RRS 87 does appear to allow this: –
87 CHANGES TO CLASS RULES
The sailing instructions may change a class rule only when the class
rules permit the change, or when written permission of the class
association for the change is displayed on the official notice board.
It would seem therefore that if it is not possible to change the Class Rules quickly the Class Association will need to provide that written permission to each organising club for display on the official notice board.?
Chris Bentley
RRS 87 does appear to allow this: –
87 CHANGES TO CLASS RULES
The sailing instructions may change a class rule only when the class
rules permit the change, or when written permission of the class
association for the change is displayed on the official notice board.
It would seem therefore that if it is not possible to change the Class Rules quickly the Class Association will need to provide that written permission to each organising club for display on the official notice board.?
[/quote
Thanks, Tim, that’s very helpful. I did have it in the back of my mind that we could do this via SI’s. But you have identified the rule for me.
Chris
Alan Moore
Fellow Sonata Sailors
It seems there is an upwelling in the Class to allow Sponsorship and hence advertising within the Class.
This has always been outlawed by the Class rules, but it seems is now being questioned.
I wish to start a debate on the matter. Please join the thread and voice your opinions. I view this as being a very important discussion, with a decision that reflects the Class opinion as a whole.
I’ll start the ball rolling
My point of view is that sponsorship of Sonatas would little affect he class. Sonatas don’t attract a ‘deep pocket’ type of sailor and the amount we are talking probably amounts to a set of sails or travelling expenses (which incidentally we talked about the Sonata Assn assisting some boats with – surely that’s a kind of sponsorship).
Looking at things from a different point of view, the class often asks for sponsorship to run its events. It seems almost hypocritical to ask for it on the one hand, then forbid it on the other.
I can understand the ethos of the class as it was 20-30 years ago when Sonatas were the boat of the moment, but that moment is long gone. The Sonatas of today are run less by high end crews and more by lower budget teams who enjoy the boat for what it is. I fail to see the harm in allowing sponsorship and just how much faster would it make the boat – not much I suspect. The advantages may be that a few more boats remain competitive, and are encouraged to sail at events. How many boats don’t bother racing because of tired sails or perhaps prohibitive travelling expenses?
I invite your points of view
Please participate, Best regards,
Martin Hartley
Alan Moore
As a newcomer to Sonatas – but not racing – I hesitate to comment, but here goes anyway…
Sorry to go against the flow, but on balance I would vote against advertising. I guess the reason many of us sail a Sonata is because we can’t afford something flashier. The reason we attract new members is because it’s a relatively cheap way of owning a great little boat within a competitive one-design fleet. There is no risk of being out-gunned by wealthy individuals with deep pockets.
My experience of advertising and sponsorship in other classes is that only the boats which are consistently at the front of the fleet are able to attract advertising (unless the owner advertises his/her own company and presumably gains some tax advantage). Generally they use the exra cash to upgrade the boat;in our case that is most likely to mean renewing sails more regularly. Hence the best get faster and the rest get left behind. Newcomers get demotivated and go elsewhere.
If our intention is to attract more Sonata sailors perhaps we should be polling those who are thinking about buying our boats – and those who have chosen to sell and leave our fleet.
Sorry to be negative on this issue
Alan
James Burns
I would support advertisng being allowed in the class
Regards
James
Steve Goacher
I would support advertising being allowed in the class
Regards
James
In my experience, sponsorship in the sonata class has been an essential ingredient in the successful running of open events. To deny a sponsor the small exposure which a logo can provide will make future events at which travelling boats attend more expensive for all, and in many cases impossible for clubs to host.
Many sponsors have gone on from helping an individual boat, to providing funding for an event.
Let us make no mistake here, mostly the funding stems from a keen individual with generosity rather than hard headed accountancy behind the decision.
To run a Nationals many of the overheads are fixed, the numbers of travelling boats are linked directly to the cost of attending. The higher the cost of attending, the lower the numbers, and so on.
Having had some of our most successful events at places such as Strangford, where ferry costs were highly subsidised, do we ever see that happening again without that help? Clubs go to massive efforts to try to make these events successful.Banning sponsorship will make thier job much more difficult
The constitutional position of the class is clear, the vote has been taken to allow display of sponsors logos. This is the class position and we should be asking the RYA to adjust the rules accordingly.
The default RYA position is to allow sponsorship, the world has moved on and if we do the same we could be in a position where we cannot support a stand alone nationals, northerns, southerns etc etc.
See you all at the Nationals
RGDS Steve Goacher
John P. Ward
I am not in favour of this proposal. With the age profile of our boats I do not believe that many sponsors will be found. I am likely not to be able to attrach sponsorship and would thesefore see this as “unfair advantage” for the privileged few. Many owners sail and race a Sonata because it is a very good “value for money” means of getting on the water. That means to say that you do not spend too much time in the shower tearing up ten pound notes. Keep the class on a level playing field please.
John
Chris Bentley
I am not in favour of this proposal. With the age profile of our boats I do not believe that many sponsors will be found. I am likely not to be able to attrach sponsorship and would thesefore see this as “unfair advantage” for the privileged few. Many owners sail and race a Sonata because it is a very good “value for money” means of getting on the water. That means to say that you do not spend too much time in the shower tearing up ten pound notes. Keep the class on a level playing field please.
John
Chris Bentley
Dear all
I feel much in sympathy with John’s reply, This is not a state of the art racing boat, It gives people a real chance to enjoy a high standard of competitive racing for not a lot of money. Once advertising become an option, so there will be a split in the fleet. Division A and Division B, dependent on how much you can afford to spend on your sails, spars etc.
The whole ethos of the Sonata in later years as a good value boat is lost. What a shame! I have thoroughly enjoyed my days racing on BFG, a very competitive Sonata , yet feel that this new rule will totally change Sonata sailing at regional and National Level, Just at a time when we want to encourage new owners of Sonatas to take part in such events. I really feel it is wrong and against the ethos of Sonata sailing to allow advertising
BFG Crew
Chris Bentley
Hi to all Sonata Owners again,
I did email all of you on the membership list about this topic. You are all aware of the deadline I set for the poll as midnight tonight. So far, not too many new responses!
Perhaps this is the modus operandi of the Sonata Class? If it is, I would like to change it. Otherwise we will all end up with doing just very local things with our boats and abandoning the fun and excitement of racing our fab boats against other owners, maybe a way away, but the different competition, the different water, the new friends we gain more than overcome the effort required to do it.
Back to the topic. Today, at the Medway, we had a Sonata meet. I announced this discussion on the website to the assembled 20 plus owners, who were mostly unaware of the hot topic we have been discussing, and pleaded with them to join in. We have, as I speak, just under two hours to go. John Ward has posted, thanks John. I have received a personal email from Dick Owens which I have decided to copy here. Dick is a long-time and sucessful Sonata owner, winner, Cowes, etc., and has a point to make:
“Hi Chris, Ads on boats or not are unlikely to affect me! I do have a view however. I don’t think it is a good idea and not in the amateur spirit. You could end up with a two tier class-genuine self financed club sailors and big budget boats sponsored by sail makers ,paint co’s, insurers etc. We saw this years ago in the MG Midget racing, privateers against sponsored cars with much bigger budgets. Goacher is a case in point, doubtless a very good sailor but sailing a boat kept mainly to win pots to promote the sail business”.
Dick’s point about the ‘two tier’ Class has some merit. The likely outcome, in my personal view, of agreeing to advertising on boats on the water, (NOT sponsorship of events, etc., as I have defined above) is that the owners in our Class who have a specific business interest in promoting their own company to the rest of us, and maybe to the rest of the world, will welcome advertising on boats. The rest of us will struggle to get any sort of individual financial support, even if we want to try. We are not big enough as a class, we, individually, are probably not successful enough within our Class to get an OUTSIDE advertiser to pay us enough to cover the uplifted fees to enter Open Meetings, etc. Let alone buy new sails, kit, etc. And, if an advertiser did offer that, then we, as owners, sailing under an advertiser’s banner, are committed to compete in the events he chooses, and we are under much more pressure to do well.
It will undoubtedly result in a small number, and I am looking at 4 or 5, owners, possibly benefitting from the rule change. The rest of us, I guess, will have no benefit whatsoever. We may, with some effort, get an advertiser. The amount of money that the advertiser may be prepared to pay for displaying his logo on our boats will barely compensate for the additional entry fees. And we will be committed to displaying his, the advertiser’s message, at whatever national events he chooses. Believe me, I have run a marketing company for the last 40 years, that’s the way it works.
It boils down to this:
Do we want the Sonata Class to retain it’s amateur status or do we want to chance the possible benefits of professionalism, in terms of financial support via advertising on our individual boats.
I leave it with you.
Chris Bentley
Martin Hartley
I think some kind of perspective has to be kept in mind. I don’t feel that we are about to change the Sonata into a deep pocket class. I feel that the kind of sponsorship and hence the advertising we’re talking about here is small. Don’t feel that BMW Oracle are about to step aboard. Consider what a sponsor may get out of their sponsorship. A name on a sail perhaps, a mention on the NoR and SI’s and the chance to plug their name at the prizegiving. Hardly going to attract big bucks is it. I say this with the entire fleet in mind. Those who are worried that a boat will leap to the front with a new set of sails, well sooner or later all boats need new sails so then it becomes their turn. Those who race competitively will always be just that and I know of one Scottish boat that has always had the same kite since I started racing against them and still are seen well and truely at the front. Step ashore for a second and think what other boats you may want to sail if you didn’t own a Sonata. Consider other classes similar to the Sonata. Would you be attracted to a class that allowed sponsorship or would you be repelled. My guess is neither. You would buy the boat on its merits. I do not think a propective buyer would be put off, after all, the Sonatas a brilliant little boat isn’t it.
Oddly enough, this issue is unlikely to affect me, I’m unlikely to attract a sponsor. What I do want however is that those who support the Sonata events, and members of the Association are best represented. Listen carefully to those that have the greatest exposure to the class and its people, those that travel and get around and meet the people.
What worries me though, is how can a club ask for sponsorship to run an event for a class that bans advertising? No sponsorship here can only lead to bigger entry fees, so perhaps allowing advertising for what will probably turn out to be a few, may actually benefit us all.
Chris Bentley
I think some kind of perspective has to be kept in mind. I don’t feel that we are about to change the Sonata into a deep pocket class. I feel that the kind of sponsorship and hence the advertising we’re talking about here is small. Don’t feel that BMW Oracle are about to step aboard. Consider what a sponsor may get out of their sponsorship. A name on a sail perhaps, a mention on the NoR and SI’s and the chance to plug their name at the prizegiving. Hardly going to attract big bucks is it. I say this with the entire fleet in mind. Those who are worried that a boat will leap to the front with a new set of sails, well sooner or later all boats need new sails so then it becomes their turn. Those who race competitively will always be just that and I know of one Scottish boat that has always had the same kite since I started racing against them and still are seen well and truely at the front. Step ashore for a second and think what other boats you may want to sail if you didn’t own a Sonata. Consider other classes similar to the Sonata. Would you be attracted to a class that allowed sponsorship or would you be repelled. My guess is neither. You would buy the boat on its merits. I do not think a propective buyer would be put off, after all, the Sonatas a brilliant little boat isn’t it.
Oddly enough, this issue is unlikely to affect me, I’m unlikely to attract a sponsor. What I do want however is that those who support the Sonata events, and members of the Association are best represented. Listen carefully to those that have the greatest exposure to the class and its people, those that travel and get around and meet the people.
What worries me though, is how can a club ask for sponsorship to run an event for a class that bans it? No sponsorship here can only lead to bigger entry fees, so perhaps allowing advertising for what will probably turn out to be a few, may actually benefit us all.
Chris Bentley
Hi Martin,
I have sen you dipping into the site! Please re-read my previous post about the difference between advertising and sponsorship. They are different and the rule change only affects advertising on boats, on the water.
As we speak, with 15 minutes to go, the majority is in favour, for argued and constitutional reasons. That being so, but we will wait until midnight, can you immediately tell the RYA that the NSA agees to advertising for the Sonata Class.
For the rest of you, thank you for taking the time and effort to contribute to this debate. Constitutionally, I was completely out of order to ask for and get a website poll, because I am completely aware that the decision to accept was taken at the 2008 AGM. Only an admin error meant that the AGM decision had not been forwarded to the RYA. Democratically, I think it was worth the effort. The debate has been opened up and more members have voiced their opinions than were present at that 2008 AGM. You can all now view the input from all of us that took part in the debate on the site. It is a very important decision that we are taking. I feel happier that I personally have made the effort to try to involve the whole Sonata community. I would like to be your representative for other major National Sonata decisions, but I can only do that properly with your input. Please use the website to start a thread about whatever concerns you as an owner that will affect the Class as a whole. It is important that we speak with a single voice to the world; sponsors, event organisers, the press, and our native clubs.
Chris Bentley
Ladies and Gentlemen,
My poll is now closed. The decision of the 2008 AGM to allow advertising is confirmed by a majority vote.
The pro and con arguments are, and will be displayed on the website for some time.
Martin, will you now take this result as confirmation of the NSA vote and inform the RYA of it. Also, can I ask you to reassure the event organisers for the up-comming Northern events that they can now proceed to publish their SI’s with the rule change in mind.
Regards
Chris
Martin Hartley
I accept the differences between advertising and sponsorship but it is perhaps a moot point. I can’t imamgine a sponsor not wanting to display some kind of advertising. What would be the point.
Anyway I shall inform the RYA immediately, they tell me the process to publish the new rules may take a fortnight.
What is interesting, is the degree of activity on this particular matter. No other thread has had so many responses. The dialogue between the Sonata community has been thoroughly enjoyable. Perhaps I’ll start another controvercial thread, say, how about carbon spars? No, only kidding!
peterbooth
Martin,
I expressed my view in the previous discussion on advertising – my vote is yes I think it can only improve the racing and turnouts.
Peter